Communism- First topic

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Communism- First topic

Post  leonthereon on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:30 am

First topic

Just so you know I don't believe in all communist ideals, so i don't consider myself a communist at all, i'm more of a capitalist.

Just a simple question

Do you think people will be satisfied with equality in a communist regime?

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:47 pm

Hey man, Welcome.

To be totally honest, I think this is a hard question to answer. Simply because it is more complicated than it seems. I mean, will mankind TRULY be satisfied with equality in communism? Well I do believe that the natural state of man has in itself been corrupted over the ages, humans are naturally communal. So when did private property come into the mix? Could a real nation, based upon the ideas of common ownership and the abolishment of private property really be satisfied?

I say yes. Basically because communism has never been wrong, since no nation has made it to that 'utopian' stage that Karl Marx describes within the Communist Manifesto. Therefore, based upon this. We can at least, gather that peace, harmony and equality [both economically and socially] is favoured, NATURALLY by mankind, over war, chaos and a collective hierarchy.
Mankind has to be satisfied since beyond perfect equality, there is no other greater hope.

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  leonthereon on Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:47 am

Interesting

I agree, the rational thing would be to favour peace over war, etc. Naturally happiness is preferable over sadness.

But the problem I believe is that private property is not the root of the problems in this world or the war. Even if private ownership were to be removed, will the primate desire innate in man for more disappear? Very likely, the answer is no. So it is that desire for more that is the problems. By removing private ownership all we do is remove a limb off the monster. The brain is intact, the thought and desire remain, it just has a limited ability to act.

Then many people would ask is utopia actually desirable? While on paper, it seems understandable and very rational as the next progression to our survival as a race, when put in place it becomes a bit of a paradox. With the removal of war, peace becomes in a sense meaningless. With the removal of pain, comfort also loses its value. With no degression, progression is no longer relevant. Take this another step, and the removal of sadness means the removal of happiness. To sum it up with the removal of all that is "bad" with the world, there is the cost of the removal of all that is "good" with the world.

So in the end it becomes a battle of values.

The sympathetic part of me thinks that it is a cost worth paying seeing as we humans are destroying the earth, and people are dying in the millions as a result of the corruption and greed of a few. Species are dying as we exploit the earth's natural resources and nature is being put off course.

On the other hand, another part of me disagrees. What really makes us human? Is it our body, being bipedal mammals? No, being human is much more than that, it is our ability to feel complex emotions, to be able to think rationally, to reason, to discover, to imagine etc. So if we live in such a utopia, we destroy the very thing we are trying to protect, our humanity. While we may still live physically, mentally we are dead. We become just another dumb species living without a clue on the planet earth, with nothing to show for our existence.

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  Admin on Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:34 am

Hey Leon,
You bring up a very good point here mate, basically you are saying that it's human nature to actually 'want-more'.. and by changing the way people are living will only (eventually) cause them to turn back to their old ways, due to natural instincts.
The only good thing that has ever profited this rather 'selfish' aspect of mans desire is that because of mankind wanting more. The direct result has been that technology has advanced in order to help mankind itself. For example - If a man is cold, he would simply make a fire. He wants to be warm, so therefore he thus advances his intellect to better himself. Thereby resulting in him making a fire (or whatever to keep warm) as a result of a 'wanting-more'. However, in conjunction with communism and its ideas. What you say isn't wrong, but is being incorrectly used as a manner of speaking. Let me explain further.

Ok? So thats the PRIME positive result of mans' desire to want more. On the flip side, you must see that communism is not fascism. The difference between the two is that, fascism is solely based upon the similarities of the people, and uses the power of 'descrimination' against those who are different, to its benefit. In other words it is actually narrowing down natures imprint of what is to be hated and what is to be loved. It demolishes the freedom of thought in which you highly speak of. Now, as you probably already know (or should understand) is that Communism is in its essence, a complete and utterly perfect drawn up plan for mans future, if he is willing to change some minor things inside his character. So see, what I mean by this is that human nature is not nature. Think about it? Is it truly 'natures' fault that mankind has integrated 'greed' as its crown jewel? Because lets be honest, 'wanting-more' is just a sugar coated term for greed. Or is it in fact that even in ancient times mankind has always not simply wanted more, but wanted whats best?

That's in essence what communism is, no man is a SINGLE machine... working all his life. Simply because he HAS NO choice. If he stops, him and his family starves. Communism is not about greed and to a high extent not even wanting 'more'. It is about wanting the best. And certainly, if one was to not brain-wash, but simply broaden their minds to learning a better way, the best way to live in this world, one would be inclined to learn about communism. Brainwashing was never the intention of communism, in fact it is actually stated in the communist manifesto that communism is the realisation of pure freedom. Inasmuch, all communism offers is another path, a path not dictated by 'wanting-more'.. but rather.. wanting the best. It is because of wanting the best, and not wanting more that Karl Marx broadened mans ability to look beyond this private - 'Mine and not yours' - mentality, that the idea of communism became re-fined.

That is I believe, the true nature of mankind. Not to 'want-more', that is just greed. Simply because if you want something, and you get that, you want something more... but, if I was to skip that and get the BEST. What more is there to have????? - NOTHING. That is what communism is to be understood as, not an invisible apple that you try, and try, and try to grasp. But a basket full of the FINEST apples, already in your hands.

Conclusion? - Mankind is not, and never was inputed with the mentality to want more! (this is just a corrupted way of greed). Mankind is elected to pass this stage of greed, the results are too far stacked against mankind if he does continue down this path. Mankind when it comes down to it, needs the best, not more. And that best, in my opinion at least, is (for the state of mankind in this age) is Communism.

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  lloyd on Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:32 pm

The Admin above me has the right idea, i mean the human senses have been fooled by the growth of Capitalism. Greed has become a sixth sense, we know this! How to remove it is much more trivial, however, this must be tackled at a young age. What will it take to ifnfluence a majority that what most of them are doing is destroying society in the process of greed!?

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  Admin on Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:35 pm

Mao Zedong got asked that very same question during a meeting when he was younger.
The question basically put was: 'How do we go about transforming a whole nation of people from their old ways into a communist stats?'
One person said: 'We should instill the dream into the next generation and let a whole new generation of thinkers emerge'
They all degreed that this would be too slow and that action needed to be taken in the 'now'. Upon asking Mao. Mao said that the people need something to follow, something worth following. Leaders who gave them hope.

The same thing applies here. We cannot simply 'brain-wash' the next generation into action. We ARE the next generation! We have to act now, yet not act without reason. We need to only take action when a situation condoning such an action is open. And want a situation? Turn on your T.V. and witness the suffering of our brothers... the exploitation of our brothers... the death of our brothers!
The time is now, not twenty years from now. If we keep saying that we should 'leave it for the next generation'... nothing will happen, because we are thinking what to do, without doing it. Arise and take hold of what you must.. for the time is NOW.. cheers

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  leonthereon on Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:29 am

I don't think greed is a sixth sense brought on by capitalism.

Long before capitalism, man had greed. Greed is the force that drives a man to kill another man for women. We want to be happy and be comfortable. What makes us happy and comfortable? Materials, food etc etc. As a result we long for them, and thus greed.

Man wants to be powerful, it is hardcoded into our genetic make-up, so that we can survive and procreate. How do we survive? We are greedy and take up resources, eliminate threats to our mate.

Greed is seen even in young people untouched by capitalism. As soon as they are born, they will cry for their mothers milk. They will cry when they want attention. Another form of greed.

Back to the original question.

If man is not greedy by nature, then communism is an acceptable form of government for our survival as a race.


If man is greedy by nature, communism will not solve the problem of greed, thus no communist government will have stability.

Arguably the world has never seen a truly communist government. The only government close to that goal collapsed in 1991 and China's communism at the moment is more like restricted capitalism. So it is possible that communist government may work, if man is satisfied with equality.

But if man is greedy by nature, equality will inevitably fail and communist government will prove an inadequate solution to the problem of our survival.

I really believe that capitalism works. Instead of trying to suppress greed or eliminate greed, it takes advantage of greed and uses it to fuel economic movement and thus technological advance. I don't think anyone here will question the wonders that capitalism has done for the world over the thousands of years it has been in place. Capitalism has fueled most of the technological advances we have seen in the past centuries and it is not slowing down at all. While we have to sacrifice for it to work, and inevitably poverty will exist in capitalism, I believe if handled correctly it can solve the problems of our survival.

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  lloyd on Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:46 am

All i am saying is that, although greed has lasted long before Capitalism, it lives today.

Karl Marx "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various way, the point, however, is to change it"

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  Admin on Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:36 pm

Leon, you must remember. That what is natural and what is learnt is not the same. Greed is only considered natural because it has been implanted soooo long into the blueprints of our character as human-beings. It is nothing more than a learnt desire to want-more, to want-more and to get more. Nations based on this type of thinking can only end in the void of the rich and the poor getting wider. In other words, more homeless, dead and sick people. And more rich and wealthy people. Now why is this wrong? Well tell me why it is a good thing..?

If the rich actually stopped to exploit, shun and deny the basic instinct to help eachother, then maybe capitalist countries might be worth living in. And don't get me wrong Leo. I'm more than happy to live as I am now, but guilt, the thought that in the SAME country as I am enjoying life with food, cars and a brand new pair of socks, someone has NOTHING, lives for nothing, because they have nothing. They can't get a job because society has abandoned them, and not the other way around. This drives me to believe that this way of living is not the way of life. That guilt should employ you to think differently as well. Rich people never see beyond what they want and what they get. Greed is the problem for this. If I am taught to love money and to hope only for money... then what will I do when I am older? Pass this way of thought down to my children, and them to theirs and so on and so on. Now, you are probably wondering well why aren't I living that way? I already told you why.. I have seen the homeless and the poor with my own eyes, in this very country. The look on their faces, as if I have done this them. And the truth is, I have, we have. It is this guilt, that should change the way YOU think Leo. Yes capitalist countries are the way most of the world lives. But, that's why most of the world doesn't think differently, they see the poor, and they see people who are merely 'lazy'. When the truth is, we are just too lazy to do anything. And if this seems like it is getting abit too personal, than good. Personality is the only real thing that is natural.

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natural

Post  Pissman on Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:14 am

communism is as far as im concerned the closest political system to a natural one, it was after all, the first as prehistoric people lived in an primitive communist state, where all food gathered had to be evenly distributed. also, i believ in communist ideals because the current capitalist situation alows 40,000 children to die each day from poverty, i believe that communism can bring about some change to that number

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Re: Communism- First topic

Post  lloyd on Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:22 pm

In order to fix the growing or continous problems in the world today we must be one and work together to fulfill peace, equality and freedom. Therefore, the element of greed, influenced and powered by Capitalism must be removed by any means neccessary, maybe without the need for distruction and death, we need to grow. But how can we grow in a world of pathetic laziness and scum? afro

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